Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Some updated thoughts on beer clarity/fining agents..


  • Please log in to reply
45 replies to this topic

#1 Bklmt2000

Bklmt2000

    Five Way Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 10650 posts
  • LocationCincinnati, OH

Posted 19 September 2017 - 01:13 PM

First, I'm starting to fall out of love with fining with gelatin.

 

I've found it to be inconsistent when I follow the directions to the letter; some batches clear easily, but most take as long as if i'd not used gelatin at all.

 

Getting tired of seeing floaters in my beer. 

 

And (this is the most important one) the gelatin seems to be not only be removing a noticeable amount of hop character (flavor and especially aroma) from my beers, but the beers taste "thicker" than they should.

 

I have beers on tap now that were all fined with gelatin, and all taste much fuller-bodied than they should be (these are recipes I'm long familiar with and should be pretty light-bodied).

 

Gelatin, your days in my brewery are numbered.

--------------------------

I've also discovered that my current stash of Whirlfloc is a lot longer in the tooth than I thought (like, several years old), so I bought some fresh tablets on Amazon.

 

I read that the shelf life for Whirlfloc is ~2 years; mine is a lot older than that, so I think it needs to be replaced.  And the new pack will be labeled/dated so I don't run into this issue in the future.

 

I also read that the manufacturer recommends a boil time of no more than 10 minutes; i've been adding Whirlfloc for the last 15 min of a boil, so I will start adding the Whirlfloc at 5-10 min left in the boil and see if that helps.

 

Got a brewday coming up next week, so a new wave of experiments will be begin.



#2 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53514 posts

Posted 19 September 2017 - 01:20 PM

Funny. I was just about to start a thread about how well gel solution has been working in my beers. It's generally not inconsistent. There are some variables though so maybe we need to compare notes.

I take water from our Ice Mountain dispenser (maybe 4 ounces) and just pour some gel in there without measuring it. It's probably around a tsp. I cover the container I use and shake it up and let it sit (they say the gel 'blooms' during that time) for maybe 5-10 minutes. Then I pour that into a small pot and heat it slowly on the stove until you can't see any granules. I take it off the heat and put the lid on that for a few minutes and then go downstairs and pour that into a COLD keg of uncarbed beer. I pour it in gently and do not stir the keg. Then I start carbing. After the carbing is done (48 hours) I will connect a cobra tap and usually pour about half a pint of sludge and throw that away. Then I'll tap more into a cup and I can actually see when the beer goes from cloudy to clear. It was REALLY obvious on a recent keg of dunkel. It seems to work for me.

I buy my whirfloc in packs of 10 so they're always relatively fresh.

I drop my Whirfloc tablet into the boil with 7 minutes left.

I posted this in the PICTURE/PINT thread but this beer was fined with gel solution and that IS NOT the very end of the keg. There may have still been half of a keg left when I tapped this beer.

americanlager2017e.jpg

#3 Bklmt2000

Bklmt2000

    Five Way Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 10650 posts
  • LocationCincinnati, OH

Posted 19 September 2017 - 01:27 PM

I'm not totally swearing off gel, but recent batches have made me wonder if the gel or something else is at fault.

 

Getting the mash/sparge pH dialed in was important, thanks to Bru'n water, but I'm wondering if using old Whirlfloc, boiled for too long, has been butting heads with the gel and making the gel less effective.

 

I used the pretty much the same approach as you do: bloom ~1.8g in a half cup of water for 15-20 min, then gently warm in the microwave until warm but not hot to the touch, dump into the keg, and racking the beer into it.



#4 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53514 posts

Posted 19 September 2017 - 01:40 PM

I'm not totally swearing off gel, but recent batches have made me wonder if the gel or something else is at fault.
 
Getting the mash/sparge pH dialed in was important, thanks to Bru'n water, but I'm wondering if using old Whirlfloc, boiled for too long, has been butting heads with the gel and making the gel less effective.
 
I used the pretty much the same approach as you do: bloom ~1.8g in a half cup of water for 15-20 min, then gently warm in the microwave until warm but not hot to the touch, dump into the keg, and racking the beer into it.

When you rack the beer into/onto the gel, is the beer already cold? This is important. I used to send cellar-temp beer to secondary on top of gel solution and of course the beer fell clear quickly only to haze up again once cold. When I ditched the secondary and went straight to a keg from primary I moved the gel process to the day after putting the keg into the fridge. So now I add the gel solution to cold beer and the results are better than ever. Mash pH and kettle pH play a role for sure. Not sure if the older Whirfloc would interfere. Also, I can't say if gel strips out hop flavor and aroma. I am not into uber-hoppy beers so that's the first part and since gel has been a part of my process for many, many years, I end up making adjustments once I've tasted the beer. If I make a pilsner with 35 IBUs or whatever and I find that I would like more hopitude, I just adjust the recipe next time whether it's just my taste buds telling me to do that or if the gel is actually lowering the hop character.

#5 Bklmt2000

Bklmt2000

    Five Way Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 10650 posts
  • LocationCincinnati, OH

Posted 19 September 2017 - 01:54 PM

When you rack the beer into/onto the gel, is the beer already cold? This is important. I used to send cellar-temp beer to secondary on top of gel solution and of course the beer fell clear quickly only to haze up again once cold. When I ditched the secondary and went straight to a keg from primary I moved the gel process to the day after putting the keg into the fridge. So now I add the gel solution to cold beer and the results are better than ever. Mash pH and kettle pH play a role for sure. Not sure if the older Whirfloc would interfere. Also, I can't say if gel strips out hop flavor and aroma. I am not into uber-hoppy beers so that's the first part and since gel has been a part of my process for many, many years, I end up making adjustments once I've tasted the beer. If I make a pilsner with 35 IBUs or whatever and I find that I would like more hopitude, I just adjust the recipe next time whether it's just my taste buds telling me to do that or if the gel is actually lowering the hop character.

 

Yes, the beer is always cold when it sees the gel in the keg.

 

I ferment in Ale Pails, and once the primary ferment is done, the Ale Pail goes into a dedicated fridge (set to ~32-33°) for 1-2 weeks before kegging.  So, no secondary is used.

 

I suspect that if the Whirlfloc isn't too old to be effective, I might be boiling it too long, and that could be making it less effective or ineffective altogether.



#6 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53514 posts

Posted 19 September 2017 - 01:57 PM

Yes, the beer is always cold when it sees the gel in the keg.
 
I ferment in Ale Pails, and once the primary ferment is done, the Ale Pail goes into a dedicated fridge (set to ~32-33°) for 1-2 weeks before kegging.  So, no secondary is used.
 
I suspect that if the Whirlfloc isn't too old to be effective, I might be boiling it too long, and that could be making it less effective or ineffective altogether.

Your process is similar to mine. I use plastic primaries as well but my primary will sit at cellar temp once the primary fermentation is mostly done, then to a keg, into the fridge overnight, then gel, then carb. When you rack your wort to primary is it mostly clear? Does it seem like the whirfloc is not doing its job? Did gel use to work for you before but once the whirfloc started to age the clarity problem came up?

#7 Bklmt2000

Bklmt2000

    Five Way Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 10650 posts
  • LocationCincinnati, OH

Posted 19 September 2017 - 02:02 PM

The beer is usually pretty clear, as I see it siphon from the Ale Pail primary to the keg.

 

As far as the Whirlfloc goes, if it's working, I can't really tell.  Maybe the clarity I see is due to improved pH management on brewday, but knowing that I boil it too long makes me think the Whirfloc (if it's not already too old to work) is being boiled past the point of being effective.

 

And, I started using gel earlier this year, and the Whirlfloc I have on hand is several years old, so as above, if it's still viable, maybe it's getting too much time in the boil to work properly.



#8 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53514 posts

Posted 19 September 2017 - 02:12 PM

Yeah, you may be onto something. Here's my experience: I use whirfloc at 7 minutes. I use my immersion chiller and once my ground water has done its work I place the kettle into a deep sink with ice and water while things settle. About 95% of the time the wort drops really clear and I rack about 4 to 4.5 gallons of very clear wort into my primary. On the rare occasion that the whirfloc didn't work as well or maybe because I didn't get the wort cool enough, the wort in the kettle will look more like soup instead of super clear wort. When that happens I allow it cool further and then (GASP!) stir the wort with a sanitized SS spoon and then check the wort again in about 5 minutes and it's clear. I marvel at how clear the wort is going into the primary... it looks like finished beer. Eventually I start to pick up hop and break schputz which gets mostly trapped in a strainer. If your whirfloc was boiled too long or if it was past its date, I would think the wort going into primary would be soupy, not beery. :P If it *IS* soupy, you might be making things harder to clarify. Finally, I usually leave my beers in primary for about 2 weeks (ales or lagers). By the time I send them to a keg, they're VERY clear... but they're also at cellar temp, not cold. If we need to cover any of the pH stuff (if you think that might be a cause), let me know. I do know that pH played an important role in getting some beers clearer than they were before I had good pH control.

#9 Bklmt2000

Bklmt2000

    Five Way Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 10650 posts
  • LocationCincinnati, OH

Posted 19 September 2017 - 02:21 PM

Thanks Ken, good advice as always.

 

I use 2 paint-strainer bags in my Ale Pails (clipped to the rim, so they stay put), and dump the entire kettle's contents in, and then lift the bags out, and let the wort drain into the Pail.  Some of the trub/gunk might be getting past the strainer bags.

 

I might need to go back to racking the wort in with my AutoSiphon, and through the 2x paint-strainer bags, and see if that helps clear the wort up.

 

I've not noticed the wort being particularly soupy, per se, but it's certainly possible.

 

For chilling, I use groundwater to get the wort down as far as I can, then I switch over to a sump-pump/ice water setup, where the pump circulates ice water through my immersion chiller.  I'm also looking to upgrade my IC to the Hydra one Denny discussed recently.  Looks sweet.

 

Looks like i have some process improvements to consider.



#10 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53514 posts

Posted 19 September 2017 - 02:27 PM

I guess I wonder: If you just dump into the primary, what is whirfloc doing for you? I was under the impression that whirfloc was used to get everything to settle so that you could have access to clear wort while most of the schputz was at the bottom of the kettle. You won't get ALL clear wort but you would leave the majority of it behind. If you dump into the primary... I'm not sure what whirfloc is doing for you. What am I missing?

#11 Bklmt2000

Bklmt2000

    Five Way Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 10650 posts
  • LocationCincinnati, OH

Posted 19 September 2017 - 02:30 PM

I figured the double fine-mesh strainer bags would help "filter" out the trub/gunk (they do a great job of separating out the hop material from the wort), if the Whirlfloc helped to break it out of solution during the boil.

 

My next batch, i think i'll break out the AutoSiphon and try siphoning the wort to the primary, and see if that helps clear things up.



#12 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53514 posts

Posted 19 September 2017 - 02:38 PM

Couldn't hurt. I know that Denny mentioned that keeping trub out of the primary is not necessary and that he actually had CLEARER beer when he didn't worry about what went into the primary but that has not been my experience.

#13 HVB

HVB

    No Life

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 18047 posts

Posted 19 September 2017 - 03:44 PM

Obligatory.... Biofine

#14 Bklmt2000

Bklmt2000

    Five Way Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 10650 posts
  • LocationCincinnati, OH

Posted 19 September 2017 - 04:07 PM

Obligatory.... Biofine

 

I'm *this* close to pulling the trigger on a 1-L bottle of it from AiH.



#15 djinkc

djinkc

    Comptroller of Non-Defending Defenders of Inarticulate Twats

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 32138 posts
  • Locationout the backdoor

Posted 19 September 2017 - 04:40 PM

I bought a box of gelatin packets years ago.  Still have a pack left - it just wasn't worth it to me.  I don't mind beers aren't perfectly clear.  Plus it usually gives me a heads up when a keg will blow.  Cheap clearing agent though.

 

Whirlfloc I still use 80% of the time at 15 minutes.  Some rye or wheat beers don't get it and sometimes I just forget.  Those take forever to clear here.



#16 HVB

HVB

    No Life

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 18047 posts

Posted 19 September 2017 - 04:44 PM

I'm *this* close to pulling the trigger on a 1-L bottle of it from AiH.


Same one I have.

#17 Bklmt2000

Bklmt2000

    Five Way Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 10650 posts
  • LocationCincinnati, OH

Posted 19 September 2017 - 04:45 PM

Drez, am i correct that you've used gel in the past as a clarifier?  and if so, how do you like Biofine as compared to gel?  Pros, cons, etc?



#18 BrewerGeorge

BrewerGeorge

    His Royal Misinformed

  • Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 47781 posts
  • LocationIndianapolis

Posted 19 September 2017 - 05:17 PM

I've got some Polyclar in the cabinet if you want it. ;)

#19 HVB

HVB

    No Life

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 18047 posts

Posted 19 September 2017 - 05:58 PM

Drez, am i correct that you've used gel in the past as a clarifier? and if so, how do you like Biofine as compared to gel? Pros, cons, etc?


For me not even close. Biofine wins everything. Simple, fast and doesn't strip hops. What is not to love. I just add it at kegging, keg on top and clear beer in 48 hours.

#20 Bklmt2000

Bklmt2000

    Five Way Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 10650 posts
  • LocationCincinnati, OH

Posted 19 September 2017 - 06:14 PM

Thanks Drez, good info here.

 

Another dumb question: is the 1-L jug of Biofine ready to use, right out of the jug? 

 

Just give the jug a good shake, dose out the needed amount of Biofine, and go?




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users