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#1 SnowMan

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 06:39 PM

Anyone got any recommendations on apple varieties I should be planting if I want to have cider apples?  I planted eating / baking varieties last year. 

 

I've looked at a bunch of websites and there are ####ing tons of opinions, varieties, and to compound it, no one supplier seems to have a one stop shop.  

 

EWW?

 

ScottS?



#2 EWW

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 06:43 PM

As for a supplier try https://www.orangepi...der-apple-trees I ordered from them - trees aived in great shape but a little thinner in diameter then I would like, but everyone survived.I went mainly with what I would consider dual purpose apples and a couple old fashion cider trees. Seems like you may be left wit what they have in stock if you order for this year.

#3 EWW

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 07:01 PM

I found this in my bookmarks - helped shape my tree choiceshttps://extension.ws...leusechart.aspx

#4 neddles

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 07:43 PM

Wickson Crab, look into it, youre welcome.Kingston Black if you are zone 4/5 or warmer.There are many others. Browse the websites of these nurseries.Cummins Nursery- good people, great trees. A variety of rootstocks to choose from based on desired tree size/climate/soil type. They were very helpful to me and were willing to spend time on the phone answering questions and concerns... and I was a very small order for them.St. Lawrence Nurseries- Another fantastic family run organization. I've ordered several times from them over the years. Quality products. Very helpful people. Lots of other trees/fruits than apples too. Only downside is that all their trees (last I looked) were graftd to seedling(antonovka) rootstock. Which is a great rootstock unless you want dwarf or semidwarf.Lots of varieties to choose from either way.

#5 EWW

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:10 PM

If you stay up on pruning winter (shape) and summer (for size control) any root stock can produce any size tree you want - choose root stocks for your soil/conditions and prune for size IMHO

#6 neddles

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:22 PM

Wickson Crab, look into it, youre welcome.Kingston Black if you are zone 4/5 or warmer.There are many others. Browse the websites of these nurseries.Cummins Nursery- good people, great trees. A variety of rootstocks to choose from based on desired tree size/climate/soil type. They were very helpful to me and were willing to spend time on the phone anspwering questions and concerns... and I was a very small order for them.St. Lawrence Nurseries- Another fantastic family run organization. I've ordered several times from them over the years. Quality products. Very helpful people. Lots of other trees/fruits than apples too. Only downside is that all their trees (last I looked) were graftd to seedling(antonovka) rootstock. Which is a great rootstock unless you want dwarf or semidwarf.Lots of varieties to choose from either way.Eta: look at Whitney Crab too if you want the option of eating too.

#7 neddles

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:30 PM

If you stay up on pruning winter (shape) and summer (for size control) any root stock can produce any size tree you want - choose root stocks for your soil/conditions and prune for size IMHO

Dude, Bud 9, P22 and others are never going to make a normal size tree in my zone 3 with sandy infertile soil no matter how they are pruned or trained. And probably not anywhere else. Rootstock makes a big difference in the ultimate tree size.

#8 EWW

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:35 PM

Dude, Bud 9, P22 and others are never going to make a normal size tree in my zone 3 with sandy infertile soil no matter how they are pruned or trained. And probably not anywhere else. Rootstock makes a big difference in the ultimate tree size.

I assume most homeowners do not want a full size standard tree. Why grow a standard and fight picking and pruning it when you can have a few smaller trees in the same area that are easier to pick. You can prune a standard so it stays at semi-dwarf or dwarf size.

#9 eldernerd

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 09:37 PM

I have done the research also..  My conclusion is Baldwin. Its noted for its sweetness and for making hard cider.

 

https://en.wikipedia...Baldwin_(apple)



#10 BuxomBrewster

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 09:55 PM

If I remember correctly, Scott had Baldwins, Spyes, and something Orange Pipin.  There was one that Thomas Jefferson planted that he liked too.  He gets his from Cummins Nursery out of New York.  We have to start our new orchard this spring.  We do, however, have probably 20-50 old apple trees on our property, and I know for a fact at least 5-10 are cider trees.  Blech.  Not good fresh eating.  Very tanic.  We've got some great sweet apples as well, so I expect that Scott will be making some great cider next year.  There's no telling what varieties they are, but rumor has it that our road was planted with cider trees long ago.  It's the place to come and pick, and there are definitely a lot of different varieties and many cider varieties. 



#11 neddles

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 08:48 AM

I assume most homeowners do not want a full size standard tree. Why grow a standard and fight picking and pruning it when you can have a few smaller trees in the same area that are easier to pick. You can prune a standard so it stays at semi-dwarf or dwarf size.

I grow standards for health, longevity, ease of care and deer pressure. And because I have the space. So yeah space can be a real issue for some people. How small you can prune a tree on standard size rootstock is going to be dependent on the vigor of the scion. IOW, for many varieties, trying to keep them small would produce a real mess of a tree.



#12 dmtaylor

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 05:52 PM

It's funny you should bring up this topic of cider apples.  I just popped my first bottle ever of a single-varietal Kingston Black cider, and... is it a great cider?  Yes, yes it is.  Is it the best cider I have ever tasted in my whole life?  No, no it is not.  It tastes like... a great cider.  But based on everything I have read, Kingston Black is one of the most troublesome diseased trees that you can possibly try to grow.  I have tried to graft it onto my own trees for several years, but every year the scions have died.  So... I officially give up on it.

 

Qualifier: I have a little 4-tree orchard out back with 8 different varieties grafted on.  I have spent hundreds of hours researching cider apples in search of the perfect varieties.  I have also tasted over 100 heritage apples looking for the most interesting ones that I might want to put into my cider.  The best cider apples, I figure, need to be simultaneously very sweet, very flavorful, and very juicy, and hopefully a little tart and tannic on top of everything else.  The best ones I have found so far are as follows, in no particular order:

 

Washington Strawberry -- A unique apple that actually tastes like strawberries! and is delicious to eat, and also has a high yield of ~1.053 sweet cider.  Yummy and great for anyone to try growing.  I don't grow it yet, but I should!  Supposedly it is one of the easier kinds to grow.

 

Honeycrisp -- Well this one is obvious, ain't it.  Gravity is in the 1.050s, very sweet and very juicy.  Unfortunately has some growing problems and biennial bearing habits.

 

Scarlet Surprise -- Need something a little more tart with some tannin?  Try this one.  Not a great eating apple, although it is very pretty when cut open, sort of green/yellow skinned but with red flesh and red juice.  High volume juice yield but SG is  around 1.042.

 

Arkansas Black -- A beautiful balanced apple that is not too sweet, not too sharp, has a tannic bite... it's got to be just about the most perfect American cider apple, and it's great for eating as well.  Not sure the SG on this one but I'm thinking it's average or above.

 

Liberty -- A good disease-free tart base cider apple, similar to Jonathan.  Needs to be juiced quickly though as it goes mushy very fast.  Not sure on gravity because it went mushy too fast so I made sauce of mine, but I do think it's worth a shot as others have had great success with it for cider.

 

Random crabapples -- It is a pain to pick and juice small crabapples, but you definitely need a few of these for the tartness and tannin that they add to your cider.  Pretty much any kind of crabapple is fine for this purpose.  I use some "decorative" ones from my in-laws house, and I also grow Dolgo which is a beautiful deep red color and not too bad to eat.  Yarwood and Wickson are some other very good ones, for cider and for eating.

 

Now... if I was to go traditional and try to grow some old English varieties, I think I would stick with Dabinett and Yarlington Mill.  These are supposedly good producers and not so heavily afflicted by problems as with the Kingston Black.

 

Most of these varieties can be found at either: cumminsnursery.com, maplevalleyorchards.com, or fedcoseeds.com/trees.htm.  I have had great experiences with all three.

 

As for rootstocks, look for semi-dwarf like M.26 or M.7 or G.222 or something in that neighborhood -- the merchant will know what you're talking about if you say M.26 and will find something similar for you.  This gives a tree that is maybe 12 feet high -- not too big (like a standard 30-foot tree) and not too small (a dwarf might only get to 7-8 feet).  For something a little bigger, you could try M.106 or M.111 or B.118, but that will make closer to a 15-20' tree, apples are much harder to pick and you probably won't get many apples for a good 5-6 years either.  With the smaller trees you can expect a tiny harvest after 2-3 years before things begin to pick up in years 4-5, and most of the apples are very easy to pick without ladders.  Also, every tree needs an equivalent amount of horizontal space, e.g., a 20' tree needs to be 10-20' away from everything else so that it has room to grow and expand.  All good things to consider before planning your orchard.

 

Hope this helps more than it compounds confusion.  I'd be happy to share more information with anyone interested, if I can remember how to use the PM system on here, or via email.  :)



#13 eldernerd

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 04:00 PM

I found this very informative article for you to read.

 

https://www.google.c...eGMb33g&cad=rja



#14 EWW

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 06:28 PM

Anyone have good data on how many bushels a semi-dwarf will produce? Data points from the web seem to be all over the place - ranging from 2-10 bushels. I know from previous pressing experience that a bushel will yield ~3 gallons +/- depending on variety. I'm attempting to figure out if I'll need more trees to fill a wine barrel when the trees mature - a local vintner has offered a free (in exchange for a few bottles) white wine barrel to play with when trees reach maturity

#15 neddles

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 06:42 PM

Anyone have good data on how many bushels a semi-dwarf will produce? Data points from the web seem to be all over the place - ranging from 2-10 bushels. I know from previous pressing experience that a bushel will yield ~3 gallons +/- depending on variety. I'm attempting to figure out if I'll need more trees to fill a wine barrel when the trees mature - a local vintner has offered a free (in exchange for a few bottles) white wine barrel to play with when trees reach maturity

I think the answer is that it is probably dependent  on the variety and the specific rootstock as well as on the general health of the tree. 2 bushels seems like an awfully small number regardless.



#16 EWW

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 07:04 PM

A bushel is 48lb - 96lbs of apples from any tree is still a decent yield, but I see your point. Most my apples are on g30

#17 dmtaylor

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 06:24 AM

I just did a quick Google of "apple rootstock bushels".  Looks like the consensus of a half dozen websites is you'll get roughly 6 bushels from a mature semi-dwarf like G.30 (or M.7 or M.26 or G.222).  Or maybe figure between 5 and 7 bushels.  This is only after at least 5-6 years of growth, maybe longer, depending on watering, fertilization, sunlight, etc.

 

More trees are always better, if you ask me.  I've hit the limit of what my small yard can handle, yet I'm STILL planting more!  Goofy fruit nuts...




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